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Lightroom and On1 Raw

Discussion in 'Extending Lightroom' started by frozenframe, Dec 22, 2016.

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  1. frozenframe

    frozenframe Ron

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    I don't know if anyone here follows the videos/announcements from On1.com, so I thought I'd post something I found promising for LR users. Yesterday they done a Live Webinar where they went through their new baby, On 1 Raw. Toward the end, Dan reveals what they're working on for the first part of 2017. They're working to make the Collections, Flags, Labels part of the standard Exif/IPTC, well so what you do in LR is carried over into On 1 Raw, and vice-versa. There's much more. Here's the YouTube clip to that part of the webinar.
     
  2. alan128

    alan128 New Member

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    For information
    I have downloaded trial version but you need a video card later than Open GL 3.3 to open this application for it to work
     
  3. JohanElzenga

    JohanElzenga Lightroom Guru Staff Member Lightroom Guru

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    What is it in Lightroom that you can't do, so you're willing to break your raw-workflow to do it in On1?
     
  4. alan128

    alan128 New Member

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    You can use layers in on1 when you bring it back to lightroom, its a virtual copy
     
  5. JohanElzenga

    JohanElzenga Lightroom Guru Staff Member Lightroom Guru

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    H'm, I didn't try it out but I'm sure you do not get a virtual copy of the raw file. When you bring it back in Lightroom, it can no longer be a raw file, so it must be an RGB copy. Lightroom won't be able to read an 'On1 virtual copy' with On1 parametric edits, if that's what you think. Yes, both editors use parametric editing, but they can't read each others edits unless these are rendered into an RGB file.

    "You can use layers" isn't an answer to my question. Using layers is a means to an end, not a goal by itself. An adjustment brush or graduated filter in Lightroom can also be considered as a masked layer. And you can use layers in Photoshop as well, so at least anyone with a CC subscription wouldn't need On1 for that. An extra advantage of using Photoshop is that you can send an image from Lightroom as a smart object, thereby preserving your Lightroom raw edits.

    So I ask again (and it's just curiosity): what do you want to achieve by using On1, that you cannot achieve by using Lightroom?
     
  6. alan128

    alan128 New Member

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    you are quite right if you have a CC subscription you would not need it,as i do not have a CC subscription I thought I would try it out
    Sorry i cannot be more helpful I only tried it out for a short time yesterday. so it will take a bit of getting use to , It can be a stand alone prog for raw photos
    I am only going to use the trial to see if its any improvement to Lightroom, then i will decide if it is for me.You can do your work quicker than lightroom so if time is important it could be worth looking at.
    If I find anything that is different to lightroom I will post here later
     
  7. Kroontje

    Kroontje New Member

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    Maybe it's something to try it out by your self. Maybe is this a answer if there are problems with speed on Lr. I use a retail 6.8 version and look always to find out if this will works well for me. But I have tried also Affinity with layers. CS6 is getting old
     
  8. frozenframe

    frozenframe Ron

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    I do use On1 as another means to finish my photos. I generally start post-processing in LR, and I do have PSCC that I will use occasionally. LR is the not end all be all program. People use other programs alongside LR and On1 just happens to be in that category. There is a processing feature in On1 that I had no idea existed till the other day. Where you can process very specific tonal areas of your photo. It uses blend modes on a filter, then further allows you to control just how much or not, of that tonal range to adjust. Not sure if I'm clearly explaining it, but after working with it for a while, and having done most of my adjustments in LR for a few years now, I can say that this can not be accomplished in LR. It is possible in PS, but it would require a lot of masking work.

    Sorry Johan, there's no such thing as being able to work with Layers in LR. You can use the local adjustments but those do have limitations. You can not do compositing in LR, however that's very real in ON1. I also find LR's spot healing/clone brush crude compared to PS's and to On1's. Back when I first started using On1, before I picked up the photographer subscription, I would always do my spot healing work in On1. Their content aware is much better than LR. Can you remove/replace in LR?

    Finally I'm not a die-hard On1 fan. There's things I don't like. However I don't think it's "breaking" my workflow, as it is part of "my" workflow to use it. I know there's been people that are not quite happy with LR and/or PS and this program is targeting that market. With them now adding the RAW converter makes it just a little more appealing.

    Did you bother to watch the clip above Johan? They're seriously working toward grabbing more and more of the LR/PS market. The ONLY reason you can pass RAW image from LR to PS and back is they are both Adobe's product. There's not any two programs from any other manufacturer that is allowed to do that. Adobe's RAW conversion/processor is proprietary, and so is On1's. On1's XMP side-car files are going to be written at Adobe's standards.

    Sorry Johan your post comes across like no one should use anything but LR, and that is wrong in my opinion. We should use whatever is at our disposal, to process and finish our images how we envision them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  9. frozenframe

    frozenframe Ron

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    Affinity would be a great substitute, I think probably better than On1. On another forum I'm a member of, they talk highly of Affinity. Of course it was just recently released on the Windows platform, but has been used on the Mac platform for some time.
     
  10. JohanElzenga

    JohanElzenga Lightroom Guru Staff Member Lightroom Guru

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    No, I didn't watch all of it, because it lasts half an hour and they talk a lot about what the product does not (yet) do. I didn't find that very interesting. But you do agree with my point: Lightroom and On1 can read the XMP file as far as keywords, ratings, etc. are concerned, but they can't read each others edits because these are proprietary. If you send an image from Lightroom to On1 to make edits in On1, it must come back as rendered RGB if you want Lightroom to see these edits. To me, that is a major drawback of every edit plugin (not On1 specificly), and the reason why I don't use these kind of plugins.

    I never said that no one should use anything but LR! I clearly said that I asked out of curiosity what you think you can achieve in On1 that you can't do in Lightroom and is worth breaking your raw workflow for. You answered that. Good for you, no further comments from me.
     
  11. Kroontje

    Kroontje New Member

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    Correct Affinity is a good piece of software. But only my NEF files take 25sec to load. So a wait when that's fixed ;) (Windows version)

    I tried On1 raw. First impression is that it's fast when I move some sliders. Much better than On1 10
     
  12. davidedric

    davidedric Active Member

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    If you look at the discussions over on DPR, this is a long way from a finished product (unsurprisingly).

    Dave
     
  13. frozenframe

    frozenframe Ron

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    I agree that it is, and they don't hide that fact. Maybe they should have held off on releasing it, I don't know. I think having more options available then just Adobe is good.
     
  14. clee01l

    clee01l Lightroom Guru Staff Member Lightroom Guru

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    On1 has set their sights for a Photoshop replacement. Their previous product (On1 Photo10) was a respected LR plugin similar to Nik or Topaz. The newest product will work on RAW files and creates a side car similar to LR/ACR creating an XMP file. If imported into LR first, LR wants to send an adjusted derivative file to the app like it does to any other external editor. On1 either works with a PSD file from LR or if starting with the RAW, generates a PSD file to be imported into LR (no different from Photoshop in this regard).

    In short, On1 PhotoRAW is supposed to be a giant killer (like Affinity) but needs to grow up before that will happen. On1 PhotoRAW is sold as an annual subscription. Differing from Adobe's subscription model in that if you stop the subscription, then you keep the version that you have installed and get no further updates.
     
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  15. frozenframe

    frozenframe Ron

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    On1 subscription is more expensive than Adobe's if you break the cost down and what we get. Adobe's Photo plan at $10 mo = $120 yr, On1 $149 yr /12 = $12.49 mo. That's one main thing that concerns me with On1. My Plus subscription is up for renewal in 5 days, (I know they had to time the release of RAW with this ;)). I've went back and read/re-read the comparisons between the Plus and their new Plus Pro. My renewal cost is the same as the Plus Pro, even though it didn't exist when I subscribed. What I'm understanding, to get the new features and such, one must subscribe to the Plus Pro, not the "new" Plus Basic.

    Here's one more quirky thing, The Plus Basic plan you don't get the software/apps. So to access their tutorials it would cost $49yr. So like I previously stated, there's things I don't like and these are some of them. If I don't renew, then it seems yes, I still can use the app, complete with any bugs, and not be able to get fixes to them. I'm not sure on that, as I am attempting to gain clarification. I hope that's not the case.
     
  16. PhilBurton

    PhilBurton Active Member

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    Competition is good for users. I hope that Adobe gets off its complacent posterior and innovates both in the product and in pricing models.

    About releasing an incomplete product: The received wisdom is that you can't succeed until you have a "differentiated" product with features and benefits the competition doesn't have. That said, there are always "early adopters" who will try anything and those people are a potential source of revenue, which is important.

    There are plenty of things that users don't like or find lacking in Lightroom. ON1 could possibly use such lists to guide its own product. But I have no idea if that is what they are doing.
     
  17. frozenframe

    frozenframe Ron

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    Well I'm sorry to say that I've now changed my position on On1. They are running an On-Line Fraud in my opinion. I've been trying to contact them for the past several days to cancel my renewal of their Plus program. Their FAQ states it is done through the user account. That is not true. There is no way for that to happen. You see a grayed-out/muted Delete button that you can not use. It requires you to just change your payment method. No way to remove it. I've sent their customer service notifications through their website contact form. The only reply is an automated one, claiming they're too busy to answer, but may in a couple of days. I've placed phone calls only to get an automated reply, referring me to their website. I've also attempted to contact them on their forums and get nothing.
    My payment was setup through PayPal, and I've contacted them now. They don't have the option to block it, but they will dispute it if they receive a charge from them. Finally if that does occur, I'm preparing a formal complaint through the BBB, and the Attorney General's office.
     
  18. frozenframe

    frozenframe Ron

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    Ok, to be fair, as I'm not out to just slam anyone or company for no reason.
    I just got off the phone with a rep from On1. He called me, and stated that he is taking care of the situation. He is seeing to my membership be cancelled, and I'm not charged. However it took what I've posted to garner that response.
     
  19. johnbeardy

    johnbeardy Senior Member Staff Member Moderator Lightroom Guru

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    Not a great time of year to expect good customer service?

    I must admit, I am surprised at the interest in these new raw converters. Has no-one experienced the days of a browser to review your files, a raw converter to demosaic them, scripts to copy adjustments to series of photos, a RIP to print them, another program to make a book, one to make a slideshow, a manual exercise to get pics onto your phone..... These new converters may do a few things, but let's not ignore all the things they just don't do.

    John
     
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  20. frozenframe

    frozenframe Ron

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    There is one thing On1 done better than LR and PS in my opinion. Their "content aware" for removing spots, blemishes, and removing backgrounds. The tools it has for refining the masks for complicated things like hair and tree branches, done much better, cleaner, faster job. When I stared using On1 a couple of years ago, that was the main selling point for me. Being able to composite or clean up easier. I haven't used much of the other aspects, even all the filters and presets. I do that stuff in LR or PS, and am looking to get away from LR and/or PS in the next year. It's going to hard to depart from LR, and was hoping that ON1 Raw was going to take care of that. Sadly not. It's been running slower than On1 10 on my machine, and that's with utilizing their Indexed photo feature.
     
  21. fsuscotsman

    fsuscotsman New Member

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    I've been trying out the On1Raw as well. My biggest complaints are that it is slow and that it can't use my Topaz plug ins. While I don't have a Wacom tablet yet, I want one and it doesn't support pressure scaling. I'm sure at some point all of this is going to be collected but my problem is that at first we were told that we would get the product in November. That turned into a "pre-release". We then got a updated pre-release. THEN we got what was supposed to be a finished program. The problem is that the "finished" program has more bugs than a flea ridden armadillo!!! On1 knows it as they put out a "known issues" statement.

    To say the least I'm frustrated with them. Their blog states that they will have a new release every month to get things going. I didn't bargain for this. On1 10 is a great program, easy to use and actually fun to use. Raw is a frustrating mess. They should have waited till it was finished instead of using its loyal customer base for a beta test group. One thing I've noticed over the years is that photography programs have most bugs when they are put up for sale. I don't know if that makes us loyal or gullible!! There are plenty of products that we wouldn't put up with this for two minutes, but we will for this, for some reason.

    I'm not here to bash On1, I hope that they get it fixed soon and it's a solid competitor to Adobe. That will make Adobe look over their shoulder, as any good company should do. Right now my advice would be to wait if you are interested in their Raw version. On1 10 works fine.
     
  22. PhilBurton

    PhilBurton Active Member

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    Fsuscotsman,

    No real surprise about ON1 RAW. It's a "big" program, and this is the first release. So imagine you could sit in on all the recent meetings at ON1. Let's imagine a meeting around August: "Yes, we all agree that we MUST have RAW shipped by November, so we can catch the Christmas shopping season." Everyone at the table has agreed, product management, marketing, and of course engineering. Misgivings are left unsaid, concerns are glossed over. It is absolute heresy here to suggest slipping the launch date until the product is truly ready for use.

    Now it's October 15. "Wow. Engineering says we are behind schedule. What do we do?" After much discussion, everyone agrees that the November release will be called a "pre-release." That way, everyone can get their bonuses and raises based on meeting the target date, and they can still continue development. Only problem: No one in that meeting truly spoke for customers, like you. And by publishing the list of known bugs, the company absolves itself of responsibility if users trip over these bugs. "We told you!! Didn't you read our list?"

    Marketing blogs that there will be a new release every month. Again, everyone feels good, because the customer expectation problem is being "managed." Except customers are annoyed at having to "re-learn" the product every month and take advantage of the new features to improve photos already processed.

    This situation is more or less the reality with any large piece of software. That is why so many software products arrive late (but more or less functional). There is an old IT saying, "Never upgrade to the new version of Windows until the first Service Pack. (collection of patches)."

    I hope ON1 succeeds here, if only to give Adobe some more serious competition, and I hope that someone (else) creates a complementary DAM that is both easy to use and is an effective competitor to the Library module.
     
  23. fsuscotsman

    fsuscotsman New Member

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    I agree, mostly. We've been hearing about RAW for long time now, I suspect at least 10 months. While I don't mind a few bugs as I doubt even a large beta test would find them all, this just is a goat rope!!! Little things like a crop tool that is in 10 isn't in Raw. My biggest complaint is that they released in December. Most places have a lot of employees gone. Getting answers to tickets this time of year is hard for lots of places. They HAD to know that the frustration level was going to be high, and made higher with lack of communication. As I said, I want them to be successful but this isn't the way to start out.

    I think what I really want right now from On1 is some honesty. If it's broken, tell us what is happening and when it will happen. If you don't know don't tell us that you do. If it's going to be an uphill climb, tell us that. Just don't lead us on. I'll be a LOT more lenient with that kind of approach.
     
  24. rob211

    rob211 Senior Member

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    I dunno about On1, but DxO plugins have a workflow that allows passing a RAW to DxO and getting a linear DNG back, which perhaps is more flexible than other methods. But I mention it cuz they have a good explanation of a workflow for using their product for adjustments vs the old "edit in..." option: Advanced Image Processing Technologies | DxO

    Fast Raw Viewer also has the ability to write some Lr/Ps compatible adjustments to RAW via the use of a sidecar, which Adobe can read on import. About | FastRawViewer. So does Mylio. Of course then you get the Adobe RAW rendering, but at least you can preserve WB, some contrast, and some other changes non-destructively.
     
  25. PhilBurton

    PhilBurton Active Member

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    Rob,

    Since you mentioned Fast Raw Viewer, I've been thinking about adding this tool to my workflow. Do you use it? How much? Does it save you time in your post work?

    Phil
     

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